People you meet along the way - EP16 - Bill Cavanagh PT1

From Gaol Bill Cavanagh shares his tumultuous journey following his father's murder, revealing his complex criminal background and deep-seated desire for revenge. He expresses distrust in law enforcement, criticizing their handling of the case. Bill's narrative highlights his emotional turmoil, family dynamics, and plans to seek justice through various means. The story unfolds with a commitment to reconnecting with family and ongoing developments in the investigation.

Transcript

1:10

Of the people I've met along the way. My contact with Jail criminal former Hardman in the notorious Victorian painters and Dockers Union, bill Kavanaugh, proved to be an exceptional experience. I never really received a formal introduction to Bill Kaner, except when Penrith detectives arrested him for multiple crimes in a shootout at Penrith in March, 1982, an arrest captured on his camera by young local newspaper cadet photographer, Warwick and Kavanaugh's. Subsequent appearance in court, the personal contact with Kaner came in the form of a telephone call from a young woman who'd recently married the career criminal within the walls of Sydney's Parkley prison, saying she had a story for me. We met one morning in 1984 at the press room at CIB headquarters. I requested daily Murra reporter Tony EO to sit in on the meeting. We three met adjourned to Conrad Restaurant at the Hilton, where I reached an agreement with the young woman for Bill to use his one call a day phone hookup to call me next morning on a recording line. We left, said goodbye to Bill's wife and walked back to the CIB where Tony said, did you pay the bill at Conrad? To which I answered, no, I thought you did. Governor's call came through as arranged. It proved to be one of the most bizarre interviews with Bill threatening to murder whoever killed his father and his father's partner, Carita Lee, and offering $30,000 to anyone who would tell him the killer's name. Bill, can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Uh, first up, bill, uh, just so we've got no, uh, sort of misunderstandings, what have you got to say? Well, what have I got to say? Well, I'm not too happy about the way the police have handled me father's case. Why? Well, why, until I personally become involved with the case, there was no publicity about, about him at all being murdered the way he was. And I personally don't think the police are even, are even, uh, interested in clearing it up like they should, as quick as they should. Bill, Um, can you just, uh, tell me you Hang on, hang on. There's a bit of noise here. Yeah, No worries. Yes. Bill, you made the offer of an a reward Of $30,000. That offer still stings. You haven't had any response from it yet? I had a couple of things, yes. Bill? Uh, do you know who the killer is? Yes, I believe I do know who the killer is, but it will not, I mean, uh, it is what I'm saying. I, this matter will not be handled by the police. Why Bill? Well, because I've got no faith in the police and nobody's gonna do a cruel killer on my father and come to jail for six or seven years, get to a camp in two years or so, and then get out. You see, a cruel killer doesn't do as much as an armed robbery in jail and get, and he gets an armed to your right. The only people that do it are in jail are the armed held up blokes. I mean, that, that, that whole situation's just not gonna occur with me. Bill, you say it was a thrill killer. Is that all it is? It, it's, it's, it's a bit of both. It's revenge and it's also thrill. I mean, anybody that pumps that many bullets into anybody at all has gotta get some sort of a thrill outta it, or they wouldn't do it, would they, Bill, do you know of any motive for the killing? Yes. Yes, I do. My father was a hard man. He was, uh, uh, there's a, there's a few relations getting around saying my father was a good man and all that, but I still stand by what he was before he was alive. I mean, I love my father, but he was a very hard man and a hard man to get along with. And, uh, nothing was beyond him. You know, my father was a, well, he used to be a crook a long time ago. And, um, I know certain things that I can't mention because, uh, I, I, there's things I just have to keep to myself, bill, only because I've got no faith in the police Bill putting up the reward like this. Yeah. Uh, are you gonna cause further trouble for you and your family? Well, I'm not worried about myself and, and, and actually the other members of my family, I'm not really worried about them neither, because as far as I'm concerned, they're doing nothing about me father's death. Well, what do you wanna see done? You know, if, if, Well, I wanna see justice done, right? If the police arrest this fella, obviously you are going to get to know about it fairly quickly. Well, The police arrest this fella. He won't live six months, and I don't care who knows it. And that's it. Well, bill, what will happen? What will happen? I intend, I don't care who knows it or what knows. I intend to revenge my father's death in the most violent way that I know how. And if his family has got any sense at all, they'll come forward. Now, while they're still safe themselves, Bill Crims don't talk. Are you asking Crims to tell you what's happened? Yes. That that's not so at talk Crims do talk. Listen, there's no solidarity like they used to be. Why is That? Because if it's junkies poof, things like that, there's no, there's no things what you call a staunch cri much anymore. You might get, say five in a hundred. That's your odds in jail. I've got no fate. I very seldom mix with any crims anymore. The only crims I mix with are the Fed income ones. Well, you are asking, uh, you are asking Crims or anyone else who can help to come forward and tell you who killed you. I'm asking their girlfriend or their wife or any members of their family to tell me now while they're safe. Because if I find out through the police, it's their families and that there's gonna be harmed. If they tell me now, nothing will happen to them. Only the person responsible that put them bullets in him. And I believe there was a second person in the house, and, and, and this other thing, my father carried a lot of money in that house, a lot of money. My father didn't believe in banks and things like that. And he was, he wasn't what you call a poor man. He was a man well, off and every, and everything he bought, he paid cash, but that means houses, trucks, anything at all. There was no 12 fee to pay a hundred thousand dollars out for something in cash Bill. But the, the money, I mean, the person that done the killing never got all the money outta the house. You know that, that's went missing after he was dead by somebody else. I found that much out. Well, what was the motive for the killing Bill? Revenge. More, more revenge than anything. Against who? Against my father. What, what for what enterprise, what for? Well, there's a thing called, called grass cutting. That's what it's called in the criminal world. I mean, not only in the criminal world, but um, you mustn't touch another man's woman. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, I follow that. You understand? And that's, um, I believe now the information that I have, that's one of the reasons why that he has died. And, uh, I have, I, I personally can say that I have two people on the list who I think kill me, father, you know. Well, what are you going to do about that information? Well, if, if I don't get anything definite, well, I intend to get both those people. I don't hide the fact I'm looking at a life lagging now. I'm already doing a life lagging in prison. I'm doing a big lagging in Melbourne. I'm doing 17 years here. I'm not doing floor views. I'm doing 17. Well, how will you go about it though? Well, those are things that I have to keep to myself more or less. But a lot of people out there owe me. I'm not just doing jail over myself, but a lot of people out there owe me. And I'll be calling on some of those people to do me favors. And they haven't got much choice but to do 'em, Bill, by speaking to me. Now, are you putting yourself in any danger? Well, it probably is, but I'm not worried about about that. The thing is, I'm just worried about getting a person responsible for killing me, father. That's what, that's my main concern. I mean, you face danger every day in jail. In what way? In all ways. I mean, you just face danger every day in jail. Not an easy place to live in. Maximum security all the time, Bill, if someone comes forward to you. Yeah. Um, is there any way in the world that you would consider putting that information before the police? None whatsoever. Why? Because I was told I've got no faith in the police. None. I haven't got any faith. If you knew some of the things that I've been through, a lot of people out there don't realize what some police are involved with. I'm not saying all police, but I'm saying mainly the armed robbery squad and people such as that. They're the ones I don't want nothing to do with 'em. I've lost large sums of money to 'em. I've, I've given them large sums of money. Not only myself, but others too. You know? I mean, they, they pick you up. They verbally gave armed robberies and, but if the people, they live off too light of dirty, rotten child tampers and people like that, they're not worried about'em, you know? But if you're an armed rob, you're taken to the station, you get money taken off, you've gotta buy your way outta things. No, I've got no faith in the police and neither did me, father Bill. Wouldn't it be in your interest mm-hmm. To have this person discovered and found out and jailed? No. No, no. That wouldn't be in my interest. That's no good to me. That person ain't gonna do six or seven years or beat it on technicalities or do anything like that. I mean, no. I, I I want revenge. I can't even sleep over a night thinking about it. No. I, I'll never live until un until the personal person's responsible and I swear, and they'll get it in the most vicious way. They had no compassion at all for him, the way they'd done it. Bill, how did you find out that your father was dead? We Were watching tv. He came over tv. The police didn't even have enough decency to come and tell me. They're keeping a lot of things from me. I mean, you know, it'd come on tv. We were sitting at a table playing cards and had come on tv. I was shocked. Did you realize immediately who they were talking about? Yes, I did. As since they said Edward Kaner of Ox Park, I knew who it was. Bill, how close have you been to your father over the years? Well, My father and I used to be close a long time ago, but I sort of drifted away and I changed the spelling of my last name to protect members of my family because what I became, and, uh, I, I had very little to do with me father. Um, a few times when I was on the run. I seen him discreetly, you know, discreetly. And, uh, he came to the prison a couple of times and seen me to make sure that I was all right and if I needed anything. But that has some members of his family. I believe that he had more time for me than any of the others because he reckoned they blood suck, always bludgeon off him. Bill, sitting in prison. You must feel a deep frustration. I feel hate. I, I can't describe how I feel at this moment. I can't sleep over night. I've gotta keep busy. Just, just trying to stop thinking about it, you know? And I feel that, uh, I just feel that my brothers as sons should show a little bit of decency, whether they go to prison for it or not. They should be trying to do something, but they're not, they haven't got enough guts to do it. Bill, are you in any, will you be in any trouble when this is broadcast? I Didn't really care about that. I'm not caring about any trouble or anything like that. Do What about with the prison authorities? Well, that's bad, right? They put me down the high security unit 18 months ago and, and I got a flo in at least every week in Ade needles. I mean, that doesn't worry me. This is my father's death that matters to me. I'm not worried about what they do. Bill, are you safe at the moment? Are you safe from, uh, any harm? Obviously this person, probably the killer, probably knew the connection with you and your father. Are you safe now? Of Course I'm safe. Look, he went into a house with a gun and pumped a heap of bullets into my father. I mean, it's, I'm a younger man. I don't believe the man's got any guts whatsoever. Any, anyone with any guts wouldn't do anything like that. I mean, he even shot that young woman all them times. Now the person's got no guts at all. He's a gutless, dirty cow. Bill, what happens to you now? What do you face? What do I face? And how do you mean? In prison? In prison and in your personal life. Well, I feel now that there's only one way that I'll go. Now this has happened to me, father. I'm just not gonna rest until I get, until I get results of it. What? In my own way. How are you going to go? What are you going to do, bill? I intend to destroy anyone at all that was involved with it. And them person will be destroyed viciously. I promise. I promise the world that you will never know. Just what I go through, laying there every night in that hell, thinking about it. I haven't been able to sleep. That's all I've done is hate. Ever since I'm dirty on my family. I'm dirty on my brothers. I'm dirty on the whole of 'em, having no guts at all. And as far as I'm concerned, they didn't love me, father. They're not gonna do anything about it. Helping the police is, is, is, is not loving anyone.'cause they're not gonna do anything about it. Well, surely if the homicide squad can get a lead, they'll do something. What are they gonna do? Arrest the bloke. Put him in jail for six or seven years and he gets out. That's no good to me. That's not what I want. You know? And I don't think they'll get anybody do. Why? I don't think they're trying the proof's there. I mean, they didn't come and notify me. They didn't really dig that deep, the little tiny bit of publicity that they'd got. But yet, if a copper son or, or, or or, or a politician goes and does something nice, it gets front page. And yet if, if a man that's got a bit of a criminal record gets killed in that way, they just, um, they don't worry about little tiny two inch square in the paper. That's all he got. My father's worth more than that. Mm-hmm. Bill? Uh, I'll say this now. I've finished the formal part of that. I've got all that on tape and we'll run it tomorrow morning. But I've gotta tell you this. Mm-hmm. We've received a letter Yeah. From, uh, firm solicitors on behalf of your brother, Glen. Yeah. And he has warned us about, uh, defamation of your father in terms of bringing up past criminal record. Do you understand that? Yes. Well, so we are in a bit of difficulty, the things you said about your family. Yeah. I may have to delete from the interview. So when you hear this tomorrow mm-hmm. You'll know that that's the reason I've done it. Listen, You know, you know my young brother Glen? Yeah. He, he, he's not behind any of that, you know. Well, what is it? I've got another brother that my father hated, hated on me, and absolutely hate it. Wouldn't have him in near the house, who also robbed him, robbed his own father. And now he's come sniffing around and because he's older and he's that weak and that gutless, he, he, he's run around telling him how to, how to run his life. My father wouldn't even have him in the house. He was too, he's too weak to work and he's too gutless to Thieve and anyone like that. He wouldn't have any either place. Well, bill, I've just gotta warn you that you know, legally Yeah. Because you know, they sue and everything like that. Yeah. But when you hear this, if you find that that part about your family has been deleted, uh, don't blame me. Right. I'd like you to put it over that they, that they're gutless and, and, and, and, and can the cows who done it Well, I'll do as much as I possibly can on that. But what you've said, I'm sure is going to bring home to a lot of people the way you feel and, uh, about your father's death and about the police action. I mean, the proof's there. You know what I mean? I'm, I I mean, I, I just, I just can't get it out anymore. And I can't even think straight. That's all I'm doing. I'm, I'm thinking with hate, you know? And, and that's just not like me. They're just not doing enough. Are they, Bill, is the, has the death of your father upset your prison routine at all? Yes. It has. Yeah. In what way? Well, I generally go to work every the morning. I can't, I, I come back in the afternoon. I just mind my own business now. I, I'm getting cranky. I, I can't think, I can't do my job properly. I can't even talk to people properly. Has it affected your discipline in the prison? Yes. It is. Yeah. In what way? Well, I, I feel that I'm gonna get myself into a lot of trouble. I, I, I can feel it inside me. Bill, you're at Park Lee. That's right. What, What's it like, what's the regime like, how do you the prison, The prison's not much good at all. You made work 40 hours a week. You made, if you don't work, you go to the tracks. That's as simple as that. But I work because I love me. I love messes. And I like the visitor of a weekend. Now, if I worked that 40 hours a week, the governor lets me see a Saturday and Sunday. Understand that. Yeah. I follow. That's the routine. I mean, supposed to be a jail of the century, but that's, that's not really the case. This is the, this is the jail for the prison officer to do it easy. Not for the crims. It's pretty to look at. And that's it. Every 90 crims out of a hundred, he one outta the place they went put back in the old, at the old jails. Yeah. I follow Bill. I guess we're gonna run outta time fairly shortly. Mm-hmm. Bill, can I just get back, first of all, the reward. Can you pay that Reward? I can pay that reward on my word of honor. It will be paid. But even the mention of you being in jail Yes. Having $30,000 to pay out. Isn't that going to bring down trouble on your head? What? Like, put me in jail. What? They can only put me in jail. I'm already in here. And you are willing to pay that out to anyone. I'm willing to pay that out. And the information must come to you. It Must come to me, Bill. They that they can, it's, they've only got to, uh, write me a letter. Uh, let me know something like that. There's ways of letting me know. And if, uh, any cream out there or anyone that's had anything to do with prison, they know exactly what I mean. Not hard to get word to me. They can visit me weekends, any weekend, Saturday or Sunday. Bill, getting back to what you said, for the motive, for the killing of your father. Yes. You put this down to robbery? No, it wasn't robbery. Not At all. No. Was not robbery. Robberies don't act that, that a robbery just doesn't go down like that. Well, the revenge you said, you mentioned your father's indulgence in young women Being with other people's women. That's correct. Yeah. Well, how did that work? What was the, what was behind that? Well, my father always, uh, he was a man that always had somebody else's woman. He was one of them sort of race.'cause he got on pretty good with women. Um, he got on good with younger women. As I got over, once a woman got over 25, he didn't want too much to do with him. You know, that's the way he was. Um, And do you think the killer is someone that he has wronged in this manner? I've got the killer down to two people. Well, can you de could you name them for me? No, I, I couldn't do that for you. You know, but that person out there knows exactly why. I mean, the killer is, put it this way, the one of the ones I've got list is between 27 and 31. He all know who I mean, Those Sydney people. He is. Yes. That's right. Well, this is an amazing conversation for me because I, because I'll tell you something now. I'm just telling you the truth. Those two people out there know that I know. You know, Do they know that you've got people looking for them? Yes. Well, bill, what's your, what's your purpose in coming to me at two GB? Because I'd like you to, to try to, uh, your radio station to tell people out there, to get someone to come forward to gimme this information so innocent people don't get hurt. And I feel that if someone out there that thinks of thinks properly and gets a message, and that, to me and, and, um, tells me who this person is, is gonna save innocent people from getting hurt. Because once I go on the rampage, you know, it's too late then. Bill, I've gotta say this to you, isn't this just taking the law into your own hands? Yes. I will be taking the law into my own hands. That's correct. But isn't it taking it to just too far? Maybe it is, but what, how about, how about the way I feel at this moment? You know, they're all, they're all saying how bad I am. But look at the people that have made me bad. I mean, I've had some terrible things happen to me in life too. I've been shot and stabbed and things like that. I've got it all. I've always got things in the back. It's only been these last few years that I've turned bad on them. They're not giving me much choice on people. Bill, you know your father's history better than I I do Know it really well. Bill, would you ever have expected that he would be killed in this manner? No. Not in this manner. No. No. But he came to Parramatta and seen me when I first got captured on the shootout now with the police. And he told me a few things that he was worried about and he'd just come in, had a general conversation that with me, that's all. And he told me, uh, like he, he didn't, he didn't say he was gonna get shot or anything like that. He just thought that, uh, you know, the time I did this sentence and everything and got back out and it, that he'd die, you know? But not like that. Just like, like, um, natural causes, like just die. And, um, he just told me a few things. Said he was sorry about, you know, your past and things like that. He just come and sort of made peace with me. He was like that. My father with me, Bill. It's very difficult for people on the outside to understand exactly how you must have felt. Well, if, if anybody's ever lost somebody they love, I'm sure they'd understand. But you could understand. But being locked away, unable to do anything. That's right. I'm locked up. I'm hurt. I'm wild. I'm all sorts of things, you know, and, uh, I don't like having to hurt people, but I've got no choice. I mean, what sort of a man would I be if I let this go? Unrest. No, surely that must make some sense. Do you, if you lost your wife, if you lost your father or somebody in that manner, you know, you've gotta do something. You can't expect to come for jail for few years and then get out. And Robert does longer than, than anyone that does anything like that. You know? And they've killed no one. The police can't wait to take their money off and set 'em up. I've just got no faith in the police. The police should have been here out in community, notified me in a problem manner. They didn't even do none of that. I'm his eldest son, you know, and now all the rest are getting around the house trying to be his buddy. He didn't even wanna know. His brothers in Melbourne. They all come up and sleep in his house and use his telephone, use all his equipment in the yard. He didn't want that. And I don't want it neither. Well, can you gimme some of your father's background? What sort of a man was he? What did he do? Well, my father, he was a, he started off a seasonal worker many years ago. He, uh, we finished up at a place called Aron. We, we, we knocked around Lac. That's in Victoria, Geelong, all that area. Uh, he run, uh, side shows anywhere from side shows. Uh, he had fencing. He was a fencing contractor for a while. He run two ups. He owned taxis. He was involved with race horses. Um, he made a lot of money at a, at a two ups in gambling. And, and he bought a couple of taxis at Aron and things like that. You know, he was into all those sort of things. He wasn't what you call a bad man. He was a, you know, he, he walked a thin line, but he didn't hurt anybody. He was a fighter many years ago. Uh, you know, and, uh, he wasn't what you call a bad man. He was a hard man, but he wasn't, he, he didn't deliberately hurt people. Bill, we've been told that there could have been $20,000 in the house. I'll tell you something. There was more than 20. My father had more than $20,000 in the house. I mean, I knew my father. My father always had a safe in the house. Now, where is that safe? That's what I would like to know. Where's that safe? What do you think happened to the money? I think it was taken after he was murdered. That's what I think. By who? I think one of my family took it. That's a fairly terrible thing to say. You don't know my family. Like I know him, you know? But that's what I believe myself. Alright, bill. Um, I know that you mightn't think too much of me and I'm not really worried about that. I mean, I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I, I I, I was trying, but I was hoping to do the right thing. I wasn't, and get out and be married and start up a second year shop or a porn shop. That's all I wanted to do. But now it's just changed my whole life around. You know, I, I had enough money to get out and sort of just go away and, and just forget all about this now, you know, I just can't think of anything else about revenge. And I never seen anything. I don't mean I've never heard anybody that didn't do anything to me. Even the Victorian business. I mean, people done terrible things to me was only revenge on them. What am I gonna do over this Bill? Um, yeah, I, you know, it's not for me to judge you. I, uh, I know a lot of people might judge me bad, but I'm sure that a lot of people see it in, in that way that's lost someone they love. Yeah. I I was actually in Penrith court when you, uh, defended yourself out there. Yeah, I, um, as I said, I, it's not for me to judge you. You know, I'm just a reporter. I know the other two blokes who got pinch with me. I mean, they go doing business with the police and they go and get two years with a six month on parole period for the same crime as me. I get 12 years for that one. You know, because I don't tell the police because I don't, because I will not give information. I mean, that, that shouldn't make me wear the whole, the whole lot of it. You know, these people go saying their junkies and everything like that there. They get up there and get bonds and, and give people up and, and they keep coming back all the time. They keep committing offenses and hurting people and they just keep giving people up and coming back. You don't tell the police anything or give 'em money. You come to jail and this is where you stay, Bill. You are looking at, uh, uh, non-pro period of five years. That's what I've got out there. That's right. Are you, um, you're not worried that talking to me like this is gonna upset that? No, I don't care about that anymore. What do you care about, bill? I just care about getting even for this. That's all. If the prison department's start treating me too bad, well then they'll lose me. They can put me in any track section in their life. Well, I will start then Start what? Well, they'll understand what, I mean, I've calmed down in the last couple of years. I've calmed down because I wanted to get out and wake up to myself and start a life with a woman that I love and open up a porn shop or a secondhand shop, you know? But I ain't gonna stand for this. And, and, and it'll probably mean that, you know, she'll have to go her own way after this. Because once I start, well then that, that I'll probably get killed myself. The police did their level best to kill me at Penrith because of the way I am. You know, the police have got a lot to hide. Don't you worry about that. You know, people outside, they might, they don't like to think that the police are involved with a lot of things. They're involved with more than, more than I could ever say. You know, they pick you up, they verbal you, they take your money off you. They jail you. I, I think it's fair enough coming to jail. But they shouldn't take your money off you. They shouldn't verbal. You Bill, once again, you know, as I said, I'm not here to judge you, and I'm not here to judge the police officer. I know. I'm really just interested in this story and I really am interested in your plight and, uh, what should happen to you? Um, It doesn't matter about me anymore. I mean, to me, uh, I just believe I'm the best son. He head. And I, that might sound silly saying that because I'm, because I feel so violent and I have committed some terrible violent crime. Uh, but I love my father and I intend to, uh, to see the justice is done in the way that he'd want. We handle things ourselves, my father and I. And, um, I, uh, I, I I just feel, um, shame from me, you know, from my other family and brothers. I feel absolute shame about 'em, that, uh, they're not trying to do anything. You know? And, uh, and it hurts me to say that because, you know, I'd like to be close to my family, but the thing is, I love me father and I intend to do something about this. Well, listen, bill, we'll give it a miss here. Okay? Uh, now I'll run this tomorrow morning on air, starting very early in the morning, probably about five o'clock. Okay. Uh, we run a big slab of it, probably in the Mike Carlton show and other shows throughout the day. Um, can I get, uh, a message to you through, uh, uh, your wife again? Yes. Yeah. I deliberately didn't mention her name there. Yeah, that's okay. I, um, She's a good, she's a very good person. She, she believes in me, you know, and, uh, she tries to understand me. But what I, uh, what I might do is, uh, perhaps try to come out and see you myself one day. Okay. Any weekends. You're quite welcome to come in. Okay, Squire. Okay then. Thanks very much. Thank you. I appreciate your call. Byebye. Thank you. I'm Terry Galloway, and as always, there's more to come on the Bill Kavanaugh story, including who did kill his father and why.